Hi all..
This weekend was THDP, TE44, hi-flo CAT weekend, and we noticed a "problem" with the TE44..
Question 1:
What do I do with the passenger side valve-cover breather-outlet with the TE44? The stock one plugged into the inlet hose right by the stock compressor-side, but on the TE44 it wont reach?
For now, i have the valve breather rotated upwards to atmosphere, but isn't that going to cause some sort of unmetered-air issue? The sucker sure does haul though!
Mods:
THDP with hiflow cat
adj FPR set at 45psi vac off
adj Wastegate
red's 93
Lucas 009's
Walbro 340 w/hotwire(not in yet)
Jason's RJC Powerplate (not in yet)
R42TS plugs
Accel 150-ohm Racewires
Heated 02
K&N 9" with stock box
16-18 lbs of boost
Question 2:
The car seems to still spark-knock a tad..just a few "tick....tick, tick" at max boost, then boost decreases back to 16psi, and it feels like its pulling less and less with more RPM. Timing "feels" like it's being retarded, but i haven't hooked to a scantool with it yet. I "should" be 12's with this combo at this boost level right? but - how can i still be timing retarded with 16-18lbs boost?
Tomorrow's test 'n tune at the track and i'll have Diacom available to me then - what could be causing such nasty probs? Everything is new and the car runs great normally. Cam sensor? Im stumped. Im expecting to see lots of timing retard/knock counts tomorrow with diacom...but what else can i do to fix it..i have great 93 octane, 93octane chip, FPR adj. to enough psi, great spark. I dont know where else to look for solutions to my timing/retard/knock problems..reset ECM after installing my DP/Turbo?
any advice welcome - i've got the "goods", but i dont feel like im goin 12's in this thing...im almost tuned, but the computer-stuff is killing me on this car...im clueless.
TE turbo's are non stock appearing. There is no
connection for the breather hose you had on the stock turbo. Just install a small breather into the valvecover. With the addition of an aftermarket turbo it's not the increase in boost
you worry about it's the knock retard and the only way to know that is with a scan tool.
Posted here for Walter (he said just about everything I was gonna say and no use in me retyping it all..thanks Walter ):
Part 1:
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:07:51 -0400
From: Walter Skilling
Subject: Re: Induction, Injection, Alcohol, and Exhaust: TE-44 Install Help
Needed
> By Jay (Jayster) on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 05:41 am:
>
> This weekend was THDP, TE44, hi-flo CAT weekend, and we
> noticed a "problem" with the TE44..
>
> Question 1:
> What do I do with the passenger side valve-cover
> breather-outlet with the TE44? The stock one plugged into
> the inlet hose right by the stock compressor-side, but on
> the TE44 it wont reach?
You dont want it on there. It will gunk up your nice new turbo with oil
vapor crud. You also want to take out the intercooler, which you will
find will be coated with the same crud. Rinse the intercooler out with
4 cans of brake cleaner. Use 2 full cans at once, shake vigorously,
hold on one side so the cleaner can run down the inside, then flip and
do the other. Repeat 10 to 20 times. then let it sit for 15 minutes.
Repeat again with the other 2 cans the same way. Then rinse out with a
garden hose, letting it fill with water all the way to the top. That
should remove any leftover brake fluid, and bad vapors at startup. Let
intercooler sit with a shop vac hooked up to the blowing side for 1/2
hour to get any misc water out. Then reinstall and your done. Your
intercooler will be allot more efficient if it is clean vs, crudded up.
You will know right away how bad it was, by how dirty the brake fluid is
when it comes out.
> For now, i have the valve breather rotated upwards to
> atmosphere, but isn't that going to cause some sort of
> unmetered-air issue?
No, but it will let all kinds of crud into your engine, that will be the
easiest way to destroy your engine you could ever find. Imagine dust,
dirt, sand, or anything else that will get washed down with the oil to
the pan, and get pumped into your bearings.......lotsa scratches, and
eventual failure. Hope you haven't driven it much. Get a small K&N
filter that plugs in there. Poston sells them. DO NOT DRIVE it with
the hose pointed up. If you have to due to it being a daily driver, at
least put some kind of cloth over it with a rubber band or something -
do right away!!
Part 2:
> Question 2:
> The car seems to still spark-knock a tad..just a few
> "tick....tick, tick" at max boost, then boost decreases back
> to 16psi, and it feels like its pulling less and less with
> more RPM. Timing "feels" like it's being retarded, but i
> haven't hooked to a scantool with it yet. I "should" be 12's
> with this combo at this boost level right? but - how can i
> still be timing retarded with 16-18lbs boost?
Because your flowing more air, and by your own admission, you have not
yet installed the 340 and hot wire kit you purchased. BAD :-( Your
asking for a kaboom. Please, Please, add the fuel first for safety.
You need to turn the boost down till you get the fuel to match.
> any advice welcome - i've got the "goods", but i dont feel
> like im goin 12's in this thing...im almost tuned, but the
> computer-stuff is killing me on this car...im clueless.
You have not even started tuning yet. After the rest of your parts are
in, you will be starting all over with your tuning. Sounds like you
have all the goods to go 11's easy, but will take some good gas, and a
bunch of tuning.
Take care,
Walter Skilling
That Walter is a fart smeller, doh! I mean smart feller.;)
I'll add something else too. One thing I noticed and had to get used to was these cars are fast however they are different than your usual SBC or SBF. With those kinds of cars/motors you hit the pedal and the power is there. With our cars/motors you HAVE to spool up the turbo unless you've got a hell of a setup. I think I run like mid 13s just hitting the gas versus mid 12s spooling up first. And don't forget about traction, without it you'll have one hell of a time trying to get the numbers you want. Make sure you have sticky tires, learn how they like to be treated(heated up), and learn how your car likes to launch then work on your 60fts. Keep us posted, I know I'm curious and am sure others are as well. Repeating Walter, cover that tube (pantyhose may work), and turn down the boost! Somebody once said "If you can hear the knock, then it's DEFINITELY too much." Get a scantool on it to find out where you can have it and just because this tank of 93 is good(how do you really know?) doesn't mean the next one will be, always have the car tuned into a "Safe" mode, ie if you can run say 16psi with no knock at all, 17psi gets you a degree or two, turn it down to 15 or 14. Most people run with 14 on the street, atleast that's the number I was always told is a good number. I'm sure if I've said anything wrong Walter or someone else will call me a liar and tell you the truth.
Good luck
OK - im fairly dissapointed...okay..VERY dissapointed..
I just got back from the track...ugh.
BONE stock my car ran 14.00 on original Eagle GT's.
NOW - with a TE44, THDP, 43# injectors, adj wastegate, adj FPR, heated o2, Red's 93 (and 108), 43psi at idle vac off, Nitto Drag Radials, R42TS, Accel 150 ohm wires, new coil, 160 thermostat...my best time on the 93 chip running 109 Octane was 13.44@18 lbs boost @100mph and that damn ticking again at 3/4 track like spark knock/detonation was still happening!!!!! ????
I was shocked to say the least. AND my 60-foots were consistent 1.83 - my launches were awesome.
So i tried Reds 108...car ran a LOT better...best time of the nite - 13.05 at 101mph running 20lbs boost. I tried more boost, less boost..still right at 13.05, 13.06, 13.09 at 100-101mph.
There was a bone-stock Grand Prix GTP running consistent 14.20's at 102mph....why is my car pooping so late down the track? There was not one car that could beat me for the first 1/8th..i had a z06 by 3 cars at half track..my launches were scary-fast, and i hooked great launching at 8lbs boost. I even smoked a syclone off the line. But - almost all cars would start catching me in the back 8th mile..the car just seems like it loses all "oomph" in last gear. I had a new 35th anniversary SS Camaro by at least 5 cars until the back 8th, then he caught me and won with a 13.51 vs my 13.53. He was at 105mph, and I was at 98.8mph.
..am i missing something here? Granted - i still dont have the walbro in, but im running rich as-is and dont seem to have any fuel delivery problems whatsoever...or so im thinking? Bone stock my car ran 14.00 at 96.4mph...and now im only gaining a few mph out of all those mods? That 14.00 was with wheelspin and a 2.09 60-foot...just with the nitto's i should have seen 13.8 - 13.9's with no mods at all.
I better go to bed before i lose my mind..the car was king of the strip for the first half to 3/4 track, then would just fall on it's face even though boost stayed steady and no audible knock triggered any sense of danger on red's 108...but on the 93 chip i had to let off the gas on a few runs because of excessive detonation....with 109 octane mind you.
whats goin on here? I didnt have a scan tool tonite, but this thing shouldn't need 109 octane and a full-race chip to pull only a 13.05. My mph just seems ridiculously low at the end of the 1/4..
ugh.
I've been there and done that. I'm sure others have as well so don't worry, you're not alone. It takes time to tune your car right. Most importantly, you NEED A SCANTOOL!!!!! Otherwise you have no idea what is actually going on. How do you know you were running rich as it was? The farther down the track you get and the higher the gear you are in, the harder the engine has to work and that's usually where you start seeing knock in addition to the shift points. You may be rich as you hit the pedal but down the track the stock pump may peeter out and not give you the volume/psi you need anymore. Sounds to me like you weren't rich enough. It does sound weird that you had knock with the 93 but none with the 108 because I believe the higher octane chips have more timing which is where more knock comes in if you don't have the fuel, so do you really know if you had knock or not? The 108 chip may have just given you more oomph out of the hole but once the fuel problem showed up, yank goes the timing and same thing, you slow down but since you were moving faster initially, you saw it as an improvement. Also, you mentioned you used more boost, less boost, but you never said anything about adjusting your fuel pressure, so you HAD to be leaning out. That's how you tune these cars, adjust the fuel psi to get good O2 numbers (or go by EGT) and then raise the boost a pound or two and readjust the fuel psi again. Actually, just looking over things and thinking a minute(hurts sometimes) I think it's your fuel pump. If you put a gauge on it and watch it as you go down the track I'd bet you aren't getting the right amount of fuel. Also you can't compare your stock mph if you were spinning your tires, that always increases your mph. I once ran a 14.7 at 100+ in a Nova I had, boiled the tires almost all the way down the track.
Part 2:
While I may be wrong about the pump, and I don't think I am (we'll see what I get for thinking) all signs point to a fuel problem. If the computer senses knock (I think audible knock is over 10 and anything over 5 is BAD, least I been told) it will yank timing out and you'll fall on your face. Another thing could be bad valvesprings. If the valvesprings are worn out, it won't pull in the upper rpm range, which is usually down the track. I still say fuel problem. Need a scantool to verify that.
Each person's car is different. They each need a different tune to run. These cars run damn good from the factory and can be real screamers when tuned right, but it's not like bolting on NOS and hitting the button, you have to work at it. Hell I'd be happy with what you did, dropped almost 2 seconds of your et without tuning. I ran 13.03 with a stock setup(ie turbo dp ic) but put on a TA49, 3inch dp, blue tops, new chip, and sticky tires and got a *drumroll please*....13.01! Hell it took me awhile to get a 12.95 out of it. And I'm just now in the mid 12s. You just need to get time to take it to the track(my problem) and tune it. Good luck and put the fuel pump in it, I'd hate to see you back here asking where's a good place to get a rebuild or asking what white smoke coming out of your tailpipes means.
You need a fuel pressure gauge,knock gauge and as mentioned before a scan tool.
Fuel pump, fuel pump, fuel pump!!!!!
Before you go doing anymore "tuning" get that fuel pump installed, "then" tune, THEN go kick that Z0-6's butt!!!:-)
Take care, Jay.
well - i sure hope it's not valve springs..the car only has 14K original miles on it. The reason i know im rich is because my brand-new hi-flow cat is still stinky like rotten eggs, and i get a puff of black smoke out of the exhaust. At the track, i actually turned down my fuel pressure regulator to 38psi idle (was 44psi with 43# Lucas 009's), and the puff went away.
Odd thing to me was after i decreased fuel pressure, i gained 3mph with the same 60-foot and boost. Also no matter WHAT boost level i was at..after EVERY pass i blew the hose-clamp off of the turbo compressor outlet hose on the side that holds the rubber tube onto the intercooler. I had to duct-tape it on just to keep it on the hose, and used a socket to tighten it every time. It was whining and sounded like an elephant before i did that....scared the bajeebers outta me!
I guess im old-school in a sense that the pump is "working" fine in my experience. When any of my pumps were going weak on me in other cars it would kind of bog during hard acceleration, hard-start, and not climb rpm's very well - but the stock pump flows fine under test and holds steady at 65psi using a craftsman compressor to simulate full boost. Maybe thats an inaccurate test? We just used our boost gauge to measure 20lbs psi out of the compressor, then plugged it into the fuel pressure regulator, and let the compressor pressurize the system like the turbo would. But again..i fall on my face in 3rd gear..it rages in 1st and 2nd till i hit 3rd since i seem to be getting all the fuel i need through the first 1/8th.? I'll place my opinions on that aside, and take your advice though since I obviously don't know these cars very well yet.
I've been hearing that i need this pump since my first post a month ago i think. I have it sitting in a box, so I guess im just going to put it on and see what happens. Cant hurt. Im VERY skeptical of it helping anything though - especially with 43# inj. We had a scan tool, but my friend runs Diacom on his laptop for his 89 Formula 350, and the ALDL connector is pinned-out differently..he forgot to bring the adapter that fits my car!!!
DOH! Otherwise i'd have a TON of data to post asking "what the heck does all this mean"?
I'll have the pump in this weekend and give it a shot. Besides tired springs and fuel, anything else come to mind why regardless of boost/octane/fuel pressure the car looses it's pulling power at the end of the track? I read that guy's are doin 10's out of a stock exhaust, so that seems to rule out a cat-back system to help it breathe. As-is i believe my exhaust is messed-up...it has stock cat-backs up to a single flowmaster muffler in back (in the center), then it comes out the sides to behind the wheels. I thought these cars had dual mufflers? The angle on the exits from the flowmasters look a little drastic for a free-flow system (about 70 degree-bend), but it IS mandrel-bent.
Thanks again guys..you're all great! I have hope once again
sheesh! looks like Scott and I are the book-writers of these forums! Sorry for writing a novel, fellas..
Ok - im getting Turbolink 3.0 when it's available and using Diacom in the meantime. What values do i really need to keep my eye on in order to diagnose? Or should i record a test and just post the results?
hmm..another vote from Jay Jones (xtinct) on fuel pump..man i hope you guys are right! I must "unlearn what i have learned" on this car it seems - or get a better teacher! ;)
Everything I have heard is that the stock fuel pump is marginal at best. It should be replaced.
Same thing with the valve springs. Even though the car only has 14K miles on it, they still have been in there for 15 years.
I wasn't even thinking about my valve springs until I started reading up about it. Now I can't wait to replace them. Apparently they weren't that good to begin with. Check out the comp cams 980-12. They are only $38 at summitracing.com. There are plenty of write ups on how to change them at gnttype.org, turbobuick.com and turbobuicks.com. Most people are split about the LT1 100# springs. Some people think that they are to much and you could wipe a lobe. 980's seem to be the front runner.
Fuel pump and scan tool are like mothers milk and a warm blanket to a baby. Don't even go to the track without them. This has been stated before. Just put the pump in hook up a scan tool...THEN if you have a question, post it. I think you'll be washing your underwear instead of posting to this list!!
hahaha..washing my underwear...
Anyway - directscan is due in tomorrow morning, so i'll take care of that part and also have my Walbro 340 and RJC power plate in tonite
I got a gtech as well for giggles even though i know directscan can log 1/4 stats.
Im hopin you guy's are all right-on, and the pump and scantool will make my worries go away. I got all the goodies - just need to learn how to tune now..
I'll post back with the verdict ;)
Thanks!
ho-lee-'chit fellas! you were right! It was the pump!!!
Man - we took the pump out, and the nastiest, cloggedy-raggedy fuel sock was on that sucker..AND it was collapsed! You couldnt even see through the fuel sock holding it up to my friends dual-work spotlights, and the sock was completely sandwiched together....no wonder i was poopin out at the end of the track! :P
ahh..i love it when 10 hours of work pay off and i can drive my car home at 5:30am all dirty, stinky, and proud..(im glad i have seat covers)..
Now - time to tune. 1st problem..
My BLM's stay at 90-93 and my integrator is around 123-128. O2 is around 920mV @ WOT (yikes!)
and the problem is..i turned my adj. fuel pressure regulator all the way down, and im still getting too much fuel.
It was too late (or early) to make full passes, but as i feared, im running very rich. Red's 93 chip i have just doesn't seem to have the injectors programmed properly in the chip or something..it's running so rich you can smell it easily at idle, or after a run, etc.
How to adjust without being able to decrease my fuel pressure regulator? It's set to 38psi vac on/44 vac off. Whats my first step in tuning this baby now? Maybe the FPR isn't the place to look, but thats why im posting here. 920mV is pretty smelly. Best part (for me at least) NO knock counts at ALL! Not even during shifts at 17lbs boost. That was impossible before the pump - i'd always get detonation and knock counts which would in-turn retard my timing.
Thanks again for all the help - it took me a while, but your tips were right on as always..fuel pump all the way! :P
Im a happy camper..now how do I go 11's with my combo? :P
Just to be clear - turning "down" the FPR I mean "decrease" pressure. It will not go past 38psi vac on/43psi vac off now...the old pump would allow me to do it, and i am using a gauge.
Thanks