What's the best ram air kit ? or should I just say best air intake kit. Some of the adds say "Ram air" will add 25 to 35 H.P. Who's using what ? Who supplies them and does anybody have pictures of what the scoop looks like mounted on a GN. Poston's kit ($219) looks nice, but I'm curious what it looks like on the car.
I use the KB without the air filter enclosure. There are some pix of it on my site.
www.xmission.com/~nova
Nice car Mark, but I really couldn't see the air system that well. Is it a ram air setup ? If so did you notice a big difference when it was installed ? Did you cut the slots in the deflector to put the system in ? are both slots functional ? I bought my car with a K&N setup that looks similar to yours but its not ram air. I'm just wondering if this ram air concept would really add anything. Where did you purchase the setup ?
Speaking of cold air kits or DIY cold air installations---
Has anyone else noticed that their MAF#s dont go to 255 with one on, but does when it is just a K&N under the hood.???? I loved the idea of getting the nice cool air instead of underhood hot air, but for whatever reason I can only get 255 with the KN under the hood. Lesser of two evils, I would rather have 255 so the chip can make proper fueling adjustments. My Maxeffort apparently must see 255 at wot to work properly.
Mick,
I took some more pix tonight, hopefully they show the Ram Air a little better. I have added them to my web site with the other TR pix.
Yes I did, sorta, I added the ram air and a chip at the same time. As I recall those two took almost 1 full second off my 1/4 time on an otherwise stock TR.
Yes both scoops are functional, the driver side goes to the K&N, and someday the passenger side will blow cool air on the front brakes.
I bought the setup from Kenne Bell many years ago.
www.xmission.com/~nova
I have an ATR cold air kit and mine goes to 255 with no problem.Bruce
Here's my question though, you guys that said you felt a change in HP due to the ram air systems, I think you both, Mark F. and Mike N., said you went from stock or said your cars were stock....were they? Mark said "Yes I did, sorta, I added the ram air and a chip at the same time. As I recall those two took almost 1 full second off my 1/4 time on an otherwise stock TR." Course that chip, not to mention getting a good day, ie air and temp, and practice launching and hooking could have easily given you that second. And Mike said, "I was able to do some seat of the pant's comparison on the same day I installed 13 years ago, it went from a hard pull in first gear ( stock ) to breaking the tires loose midway thru 1st and sideways in second." That could have been the street and both it's temp and your tire temp, not to mention a good day, ie air and temp.I mean, I'll bet you freed up some horsepower if you went from the stock canister air cleaner setup to a cone/K&N filter with ram air or cold air. I'd just like to clarify your "stock". I'm not trying to make your posts seem wrong, by any means, just for a kit that costs $200-300, I want to be SURE of a true HP increase, as I'm sure others do too, we just weren't lucky enough to have bone stock cars to modify or to have "been there, done that". Reason I'm asking is I'm already running a 9inch K&N, but no ram air or cold air setup, and have thought about getting one or making one, just want to know if it really boosts HP. I figure the colder temp should a little, but if it's really hot, then so is the ic along with the motor, so it's not like it's going straight into the motor, then I could see a big difference. I just want to be sure due to the price, but I'll probably make my own setup, just because.
Scott
I honestly don't believe that a ram air system will necssarily add any power over an underhood K&N. It may not be perceptible at all. And there are a lot of *VERY FAST* TRs that do not use a ram air setup.
However, in a situation where your underhood temps are up, you may noticed improved performance. Tenths? Not necessarily. But back when my car was very stock I could see a lot more consistency and overall slightly improved times at the track with the (old style ATR) ram air instead of an underhood K&N cone. I attribute that to avoiding ingesting much of the underhood heat.
I've also compared ram air vs. K&N vs no filter at all, and 2 vs. 1 MAF screens vs. no screens. Provided the car is cooled down, nothing seems to have a clear advantage. But when its hot under the hood (which is usually the case on the street), taking the air from outside the car does seem to have advantages.
Also, I prefer to think of the TR systems as 'cold' vs. 'ram' air setups. Really aren't going to push anything past the turbo or help it breathe better by trying to 'force' air into it. Just have to make sure it has a clear path to 'suck' everything it can when you're up on boost.
Just my experience.
Dwight, when I installed a "big mouth" cold air kit I, too, noticed the same small drop in maf readings. Also, having the air filter hanging down near the road allows turbo noise to reverberate off the road surface making a loud racket. I may just go back to the standard underhood K&N like everyone else.
Scott K., thanks for the comments on "cold-air" vs. "ram-air", etc. Interesting, and I agree.
I have to echo Scott Keller's comments.... I've had several different types of setups on my car (I'm currently running a homemade system that I mounted a 4" K&N down by the driver's side air dam, with a molded scoop that I had made.
I haven't seen any dramatic increases or changes between the setups, but I have noticed that they help with consistency...
Anything you can do to make it easier to suck the air into the turbo (ie: larger hoses etc) makes a difference. Anything you can do to cool pre-turbo air makes a difference (ie: cold air kit etc) The problem with many ram air kits as I understand it is they use a mere 3.5" hose, which can cause restriction if too long. If you'll notice, Bruce Plecan runs the air filter immediatly before the turbo and notices a SEAT OF THE PANTS difference. As for the MAF not pegging w/cold air and it does under the hood, it may be due to MAT compensatation as 140+* air comps +14 or so %. Try an experiment. Have your favorite chip programmer zero the MAT tables and try the cold air/under the hood air experiment again, I bet both readings are the same now (or closer)
I do know, there is a difference in SPOOL with the filter out from under the hood.
I personally would prefer to see dyno or ET/MPH numbers after a change than hear about a tingle you get in your Levi's. I know there have been times when something I changed sure 'felt' different, but didn't really prove to be so when the results were in. I know I'd sure like to see some data from his experiment.
Just a comment on cold-air systems. Maybe this will help some of you figure out horsepower increase.
Right now I just run the standard K&N filter with the replacement steel MAF pipe. When I go to the track, I am finding that my CAT (charge-air temperature, as measured by the sensor mounted in the filter) is about 30 degrees hotter than ambient. So, on a 70 degree day, my CAT would start out at 100 degrees. Of course, my CAT starts to drop as soon as I start my run, so by the time I cross the finish line, the CAT is pretty close to ambient.
The density of dry air at 70 degrees F is about 1.200 kilograms per cubic meter. The density of dry air at 100 degrees F is about 1.1356 kilograms per cubic meter. So, all other factors being equal, a cold-air system would help my engine move about 5.7% more air than the simple set-up that I have now. Properly tuned, this would equate to about 5.7% more horsepower. This assumes that the plumbing for the cold-air system is as free-flowing as my current K&N/MAF pipe, which may or may not be true.
This past weekend, I attended the Woodward Dream Cruise, where my car idled for over two hours. Due to the lengthy idle, my CAT reached 160 degrees F (yikes!). In this extreme case, the density of dry air is about 1.0255 kilograms per cubic meter. If I had a cold-air system that would keep the air at 70 degrees F, my engine would move 17% more air, and make 17% more horsepower. However, it is very rare that I let my car idle for hours in traffic before I race anybody, and the CAT drops very quickly as soon as my car starts moving.
Bottom line for my car: I will probably invest in a cold-air system at some point. But, it's not at the top of my list.
Hopefully somebody will find this useful...
Mike
I don't have dyno results, but my tingle in the Levi's was definate, and not imagined. As far as over all performance on the street, I doubt there is much. However....When I would go to the track, I could not build over 3# at the lights. When I launched, it was like I was in neutral with two little kids pushing. I accelerated very little, until I got about 20', then the car just took off. I would make a run, with that lousy launch. Get ticked off, and pull right into the pits. Try to build boost, and it would jump to more than 15. I would think, 'Great, what ever it was is gone.' Then I'd get back in the lanes, and it would launch crappy again. I went for months like this.
Then one day I tried it in front of my house after work. Got tons of boost, said that's it, I'm gonna figure this out today. Ran in got TurboLink, and hooked it up. NO boost. Aha TurboLink was the culprit. NOPE! Unplugged TurboLink, and still had no boost. When I went inside the underhood temp went up to well over 100deg. I finally had the answer. Ran on the highway. Pulled over. Immediately attempted to build boost and got well over 15# almost instantly. Sat there and watched TurboLink until the temp went up to 100. Still got boost(about 10#), but it went up slowly. Waited until it hit 110. 3# max. That was it. I went to NAPA, and bought a $10 3" hose, and cut up an old MAF pipe. Mounted the K&N behind the headlights. Next time to the track, my mid 13 sec became a 12.7 car. Viola!
What was happening at the track, was I had the car cooled down somewhat, but while I was driving in the lanes, and staging, the underhood temp went up, and I got little to no boost, until I got moving and got some fresh air under the hood. Once the car is moving, I don't think that it is much of an issue. I'd be willing to bet that it wouldn't show up on a dyno, but my launch certainly suffered. Now all of my cars will have a cold air setup.
The only problem with this is I know many others with the same or similar combo, but have never had this problem. For some reason, my car did. I don't know why, but I did. Without TLink, I'd still be swearing. Thanks Ken.
Brian
P.S. Sorry for the length, but my fingers are long winded.
No need to apologize. I think that's a good illustration of how a cold/ram air kit can be of benefit. And its backed up with hard data.
However, I am a bit surprised at the amount of change you saw. I'm wondering if some of the improvement may have been due to a MAF hose collapsing under the higher temperatures (has been known to happen). Note that the type of hose used to route air to an air intake system (i.e. from the core support to air cleaner in older carbed cars) is usually not well suited to being placed *between* a filter and intake point. Been there, done that. Nothing like having your car fall on its face from choking on a MAF hose that's been sucked shut.
I know that I work hard to keep my car cooled down when racing. Definitely helps with consistency, and a bit with overall performance.
Mark,thanks for taking the time to post the additional pictures. Thanks to all you other guys for the responses also. From what I am gathering a cold air system is a good idea, but its not really going to make a huge difference. I really don't want to cut my deflector even though yours looks really good Mark. It sounds like I'll wait on this mod till after the exhaust and downpipe mods. Thanks again everyone.
Scott,
I have no idea why this fix had such a huge effect on my car. Especially when other cars with the same setup didn't even have this problem. But then again, everything with my cars is either upside down or backwards. Have you ever lost a freeze plug when you blew a head gasket? I have. Weird, huh? Also, for the collapsed hose. I had a MAF pipe between the turbo and the MAF sensor, then a K&N. No hose. The hose was what fixed it. And it was a real cheap hose too. I now have a nice sturdy one. I just used the cheap one to see if that was the problem.
Mark,
There is no need to cut the air dam for a cold air setup. The whole idea is to get the air intake out of the hot engine compartment. I just have a hose going through the hole behind the headlights, and the aircleaner is located on the cold side of the radiator support. On my GN, it is hidden by the air dam which I did not cut. On my waGoN, it is just barely visible behind/below the bumper, but in a wagon, everyone thinks it is a piece of the car hanging off, not a performance piece. Hee hee! I do plan on neatening it up so that it is not seen, but I'm not rushing into anything. C-ya.
Brian
Oops, Sorry, I meant Mick on the last one.
Brian