5. Allow fuel cells in the trunk as long as the stock tank is still attached. This would allow the new little cells that fit in the spare tire well to be run in conjunction with the stock appearing tank, but could cause resistance from those who spent money on modifying their stock tank in 2002.
6. Allow one (1) external gauge. Many people expressed their desire to have a reliable fuel pressure gauge where they can see it...which means an externally mounted mechanical gauge. This will give the racers the chance to safely and reliably monitor their rail fuel pressure, yet lessens the clean look of the body.
7. Allow one (1) more reasonably sized sponsorship sticker on the cars. This can give the sponsors a little more name recognition, make it easier for contingency award identification, and allow racers to show their support for their vendors and/or sponsors. Stickers however, make these "streetable" cars look more like race cars. Remember this is Turbo STREET Modified.
8. Allow Ford 9" differentials. This can give the participants another option in which differential to put under the car. Although the 9" is heavier and requires more HP to turn, several people were in favor of this change. This could allow additional cars (that presumably already have these rear ends) into the class, yet cause resistance from those who last year opted to go with the stock 8.5" as per the 2002 rules. A change here would look bad as it was hotly contested last year but ultimately not allowed.
9. Add a fifth race to the points series but retaining the "Best three (3) showings count for points" (excluding the possible change noted in #1 above. The extra race would be the event in Reynolds, GA - held in November. This would be extra incentive for those in the South to attend enough TSM races to join the points series, but is an extreme southern location for those up North. Note that the Midwest Buick Challenge and the Buick Race Day in Northern Indiana and Northern Ohio are out of reach for racers from the South.
There will NOT be any changes to the Definition of Stock Appearing or to the Turbo, Intercooler, Engine Compartment, Transmission, or Tires & Wheels rules sections.
Please limit your TSM rules discussions to these topics and please have all discussions regarding these proposed rule changes in the TSM forum of the www.gnttype.org/index1.html web page.
Hi Scott,
Was there any discussion to my and Rodgers requests in Reguards to my intake since it is my limiting point to make the class and Rodgers 4 bolt turbo since I see that you are trying to open up the rules a little. I'll try and keep an eye on your results as to the rule changes.
Thanks, Steve
all of the races are within something like a 500 mi radius. this sure makes it hard for us west coast guys to attend any of the TSM races since that 500mi radius is 2000 mi from us.
since we already have a stock block heads up class in las vegas at the anual november event, it sure would be easy to add this to the series.
I think that if they are allowing fuel cells and 9" ford rears that 4 bolts should be considered.
about the weight rule, most of the iron headed guys did not take advantage of the weight break that they had last year. does this weight adding continue intil the heaviest iron headed car is weighed then add 150# to all of the alum headed cars so that it is fair?
remember, not counting me, Roy Garcia was the fastest car in TSM and he had iron heads. Terry Ryan ran his car 2 years at the nats racing TSE with his stock block iron headed car 10.20s. Ryan Guy has cone 9.99 with again an iron headed stock block.
There was no discussion about allowing in the non-stock intake manifolds and there was no discussion about allowing 4-bolt turbines. I believe I addressed the second matter in (Part Two).
Almost everyone who competed last year, had to make changes to their car to be compliant. These may be the only thing you two have to change. Welcome to the money pit of HU racing! ;-)
Jason (and all) - Lonnie and I don't see the point in adding Las Vegas. We would bet that 95% of the TR racers that attend that event do not attend any of the other points series events in the points series EXCEPT Bowling Green or Bristol. Attending 2 events will get you nowhere in the points series.
If you want to direct/run a TSM class race at Las Vegas, do it! I would be more than glad to give you any details you need for orchestrating such a race. (BTW, Dusty Bradford is looking into this for the Reynolds, GA event as well.)
We are not "allowing" fuel cells and 9-inch Ford rears. These are points that are up for discussion. I personally, would prefer we not change any rules...what we had last year worked out great. I do not want to be accused of changing the rules every year. ;)
The proposed 150# pound penalty would put the class rules in concert with what was a peviously accepted GSCA V6 iron vs. aluminum head weight break. See the GS X-tra issues I posted above. For us to "only" penalize the AL guys 100 pounds now, doesn't have a lot of merit.
Scott, You want to leave all the rules the same? Even the no fuel cell thing?
Take care, Kip
Well, actually, I am all for numbers 1-3 above in my original post. I guess the guage is good too, but we can live without it. Other than the weight rule change, these should all be non-consequential issues. Although the weight rule is gonna tick off all the AL headed guys, it is more fair as stated above.
I'm also pondering having Major rules and Non-Major rules. The biggies (as I have told you and others before) are block, weight, and turbo. People that violate those rules, will get DQ'd immediately, by me or whoever is directing the class.
The other stuff is there for people to protest during Peer Teching. If someone, for instance, is running with no headliner or back seat (i.e. no full interior-against the rules), but no one protests the car...that person is good to go.
This isn't a rule change but a clarification of how cars are checked for legalities.
BTW Kip...you spelled your last name incorrectly ;)
Well as my eye's see this is that even afterall the lobbying for some changes so minor as they are were not discussed at the meeting so why even change the rules as in your opening statement "In my opinion, we should try to not materially change the rules so as to keep the playing field fair for those whose cars were built to the 2002 rules." But then who are you trying to make the rule changes for or is it personal to get certain cars in. The fuel cell and extra injectors don't sound stock appearing in my excuse bank thanks for not bringing up mine and Rodgers requests for rule changes at the meeting. I wish the class much success but it must be the fear this factor. Just a little disappointed.
Steve Pitts
I am ok on 1-9...9) Please include Reynolds, GA (Silver Dollar Raceway). Tough to make the two up North.
What are yours and rogers requests?
oops sorry, forgot about the above post where you mentioned it.
Jason, don't you have some work to do !!!!
Scott, that's not a mis-spelling it is a typo.
Sorry, Kip
Hi Jason,
My Intake is a Bowling Green intake that was made when John was selling them at the nat's and Tom released the GN-1's, so I bought them both. So the intake is my limiting factor. And rodgers is his turbo it's a 70 series but has a 4 bolt housing.
Thats the only thing holding both of us out from running with the class. I just dont understand why it seems that some people are so closed minded. My impression was that this was to be done to gather a consensus from the people in the class so they can say either yea or nay. But this is not my show so I'll have to wait and see.
Steve Pitts
Hi Steve
The turbo and intake rule will not be changed. Only the items listed are open for discussion. When we hammered out the rules last year we open the rules for some guys who complained that they would compete if they only had this rule or that rule open. We added the changes and only one person of that group showed up to race. Stock intakes can be found and 3 bolt turbos are sold everyday. Some of us spent big dollars last year when we bumped the turbo size. Not asking the guys to do it again.
Lonnie
I like the idea of allowing 1 external fuel pressure gauge that is tastefully mounted ie. no duct taping it to the window.
In my opinion, I think that if you added 100# to both the alum. and iron heaaded cars you might make a more even playing field. For me to make the weight with an iron headed car I would have to go with a 'glass hood, decklid, and bumpers and then start cutting on the car.
Other than that, leave the rules the same
BTW.......when can I regisister for next years series?...thanks, Dwayne Thompson
Hi Dwayne,
Thanks for your opinions. I'm glad someone spokeup for the guage ;-)
I'm not sure on your comment about the weight though. You do not have to weigh 3,400 with iron heads. You can weigh in at anything above that (most TSM cars weigh well over that number). There are MANY ways to loose weight by doing things other than going to 'glass. Just check the archives.
Registration will not be open until until Lonnie and I A) ascertain which events will be run (and run TSM) next year, B) we discuss running TSM at those events with the organizers, C) we decide how many events will be included, and D) how much registration will be next year.
Since these cars are so fuel pressure sensitve,an external gauge that you can see might help in avoiding motor damage and/or help with tuning.
Thanks for the timely reply...DT
Well on proposed rule #1 75 points is an awfull lot to give and only give 15 for high mph and 15 for low et for the year maybe 10 pts or 15 for other races attended. 75 pts is too unfair to the guys that can only make 3 of the races not everybody has the $ or vacation time to make all the races and 75 is alot to give to the rich and vacation having people That is why it is the best 3 out of 4 if ya run all the races you have a chance of increasing your points if you go more rounds.thats the idea of the BEST 3 out of 4 so a poor boy from indiana or another state can win it. and the only upset 1 was ***** counting his chickens before they hatched 3 out of 4 is just that 3 out of 4 so in my opinion dont Discourage the racers that can only make 3 races from even getting in it.Im sure we would all like to make every race!! Sometimes its not possible.So please dont go 75pts thats too much to make up if ya cant attend them all and if ya add a race thats 150 pts to the rich guy. help the racer who wants in it but just cant attend them all. thanks just my 2cents peace Bret Rudbeck
proposed rule #2 sure fill it up the more the better!!! rule #3 50 more sounds fine to me rule #4 my 8th inj is no uglier than my 7th sure let me run it Im just trying to do more with less$$ Rule #5 sure I have wanted to do that for a long time it sure would of saved alot of time getting the pump gas out of the tank to make room for the good stuff just flip a switch to change from street driver pump gas to full race mode ok with me. rule #6 yes to the gauge we need to know whats going on please!!! as far as looks of the car its a small guage not a big ricer top fuel wing hanging off the back ok rule #7 no problem with that. Go fast parts sponser or vendor recognition is an absolute must. #8 yes if more cars are involved more cars means better racing let em in. #9 my opinion add it and vegas but keep it fair 3 out of whatever and as for rule #1 no extra pts or 10pts at the most!!! well just my thoughts peace out thanks Bret Rudbeck
Thanks to everyone for their comments. In addition, I have a few comments from others that I was able to capture that weren't sent to this forum (as requested). I will try to relay these additional comments onto this forum and then announce some clarifications to the rule proposals so people will know ahead of time what the final changes will likely be. At this point, you have less than 3 weeks to make your opinion(s) heard. So if you wanna speak up, speak up!
I dont have a problem with any of the changes. If fuel cells are allowed i would like to remove the stock tank. Also if dequick has the stock location 8 gallon available would that be ok. I was all for the ford 9" last year when my rearend grenaded and i had a brand new 9" located and was told NO 9"REARS PERIOD.
I am ok with it if it will bring in a few cars. Walt
Will there be no roll bar rule inforcement as in the past? we'll likely see mid to high 130 MPH this year. Disqualify ya for having an external fuel pressure gauge, but no roll bar-- aw that's ok :^o
We only enforce the class rules that pertain to TSM. The safety rules are the responsibility of the track and its owner. If they choose to ignore the NHRA/IHRA safety rules then that is up to them. I would call each track and ask them if they are enforcing the cage rule. Dont be surprized to hear them say yes cage rules are in effect and then allow low 10 sec passes from a car with no cage once you are at the event. When asked we only tell what we are told. So to answer your question. Offically the tracks say that if you run the et for it you must have a cage.
Sorry Lonnie, I dont mean to come off as a jerk about this. I don't personally run TSM, but am involved with a TSM car in a small way. My concern is that whether the track looks the other way or not, sooner or later a TSM car is gonna have a nasty pass. At the speeds they are running and anticipating to run this coming year, a barrel roll or whatever- after hitting the wall near the big end due to some oil on the track or whatever cause. This is gonna "leave more than a bruise" on the guy driving the car that has no roll bar. Without the proper safety equipment his chances of survival diminish greatly. Does someone have to get crippled or killed before a roll bar rule is enforced in a class that runs this fast? I know a lot of guys say its your own head, so it's your decision. But if somebody gets killed due to safety rule negligence, it is gonna really mess up Buick racing as we know it.
Lawyers representing a persons family have a way of doing that ya know.
Enough of my "mother hen" thoughts, I just hope no one in TSM ever really needs a roll bar, and dont have it.
I agree with you 100% on the safety rules and the cage being one of the more important ones that seem to never be enforced. But no matter how I feel the tracks are the ones that call the shots on the safety rules.
I am all for roll cages at those et's & speeds. You've got ONE life, and can't be safe ENOUGH.
Well, Jim Haas said no one would pull a "Jason White" (10.60s w/o a bar at B@B in 2001) at the BOP event in 2002. Yet, no one stopped the second place car from competing without a roll bar. As such, it's not even the event coordinator that'll kick you out. It is the TRACK PERSONNEL that are in charge of enforcing that rule. Maybe if some people complained to the track personnel about so&so running without a bar, the rules would be followed. Somehow, Brady Perry got kicked off the track at the '91 GS Nationals. That's the only time I'VE ever seen it happen.
Thanks Scott :-) I agree that you should have a roll bar for a car in the tens which should be every car in the event. I now have a cage since my trip to B@B '01. The rules for TSM state "Car should possess all applicable safety equipment for potential ET/speeds attained." So I would think that a car that does not have a cage would be disqualified if protested....
Jason White
how about a manual steering box,I would be willing to go to exhaust,lites,wipers,and any other small item .I have a full interior with plastic front seats and manual steering.If I could run TSM I would ,If my car would compete I really dont think so.If not Ill bracket race it .I just cant see removing the safer manual steering box for a quick ratio power steering.
OH one more thing .Is their a web site that has all the rules listed ?If so could someone post the link ?
Thanks
Here you go Bobby...[url]http://www.buickgsca.com/race_rules.htm#TSM[/url].Click on "TSM".
Or you could go to the official TSM Websight http://www.gnttype.org/tsm The TSM websight has the most complete info but the rules can be found at either link.
Concerning roll bars - I could state that you cannot earn points unless you have a roll bar/cage. We will probably change the minimum qualifying ET to earn points to 11.99, which is still "required-roll-bar" territory. Cars slower than 11.99 can compete in TSM but will not earn points in the series. This will leave the liability for disqualifying cars without a roll bar with the track officials.
Any optionions on this?
I would leave it with the rules already stated. Must have safety equipment for speeds attained. That is clear enough for me. If this is the case all of the cars should have an 8 point to 10 point cage installed per NHRA and IHRA rules.
Jason White
As Jim Haas noted (on the mailing list and not here), the IHRA roll bar requirement does not come about until you are faster than 11.50 in the quarter mile. As such, it would not be fair to force someone to have a roll bar at the upper-eleven second range in order to collect points when they run legally in the upper-eleven second zone at their home (IHRA) track. Accordingly, the roll bar rule will stand as is "Car should possess all applicable safety equipment for potential ET/speeds attained."
Please note however, that a car running faster than 12.00 (NHRA) or 11.50 (IHRA) that doesn't have a roll bar is susceptable to being protested, disqualified (by track officials) and losing all points earned at that event.
Well glad I won it this year looks like I wont be getting any points next year!
Bret,
I sure hope you are not going to fall on the ground and start kicking your feet and make noises that go like wa wa waaaaaaaaaa. (hehehe Just kidding) The rules have not changed. They are the same rules that you raced under last year. We do not make them NHRA/IHRA make the rules. We are only pointing out that if you are protested for a safety rule its up to the track to make that decision. If you are thrown out as a result then you will also lose your points for that race. Again you raced 3 events in 2002 under the same rules and won the points championship.
Lonnie
If the track lets them race then the race should count roll bar or not. Anyone that loses a race then protests because he red-lighted next to a guy that ran 11.49 with no roll bar has no concept of going fast with class. If the track lets them line up and go then the points earned should count. A racer should have all appropriate safety equipment so the track allows them to run. Does anyone know if the IHRA rules apply to non HRA sanctuned events or do tracks just use them as guidelines for non IHRA events and it's really up to them for what rules they run for non sanctioned events. If you want everyone to have rollbars for 11.50 or faster then it should be in the rules not some "general" statement that says "Car should possess all applicable safety equipment for potential ET/speeds attained."
You could change the rule to state "Car should possess all applicable safety equipment following hte IHRA guidlines" or something like that. But if you take their money,tech them in, let them qualify, and let them race.... there should not be a protest if they win with no rollbar. IMHO
Sully
amen sully! and lonnie Im not crying yet. but lessen the points earned for the xtra race to say 15 not 75 give the guys outside the circle a chance. thanks and peace out
Probably a stupid question but, any chance of a TSM race coming to the northeast? I'm sure a big track like E-Town, Atco or one of the big tracks in my homestate of PA would accomodate. I along with a good number of friends would like to get into the TSM series, but the scheduled races are WAY too far from us. There is a HUGE number of quick turbo Buicks that come to the Mustang vs. GN races at E-Town and Atco so I would be willing to bet the intertest is there for a northeast TSM race.
Almost forgot. I am 100% for an external fuel pressure gauge so long as it is not "rigged" to the car in a crude manner.