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  #1  
Old 03-14-2014, 08:31 PM
AllPlayNoWork AllPlayNoWork is offline
 
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Default Long Post - New Owner

My father passed at age 67 due to an aggressive type of cancer. Before he died, he made sure that I was the child that ended up with his Grand National, but he was not able to give me all the information I needed. This is what I know.



The GN has had engine work done to it in the mid 90's. He used to race it at the track in Portland OR and I know it ran in the 10's back then. The engine was built to handle boost (his words) but it does not have roller rockers, which is odd, because everything this man has ever driven with a V-8 in it did have roller rockers. It has an intake tube, gutted exhaust and sometimes it has a downpipe. I would personally rather not run the downpipe, it does seem to allow 14pst where as without it that boost stops around 10-11.

I know the bottom of the engine was improved, but the car was not ridiculous. It could run on 91 octane. my dad made me swear that I would not mess with the boost unless it had race gas in it or the alcohol injection setup was done. He told me that to play it safe to keep it at 14psi.

There is a box with what appears to be a Snow Performance model 20013GN Boost Cooler kit in it. Separate from that is some Braided hose with fittings on them that have been custom made.

There are 3 chips, two loose and one in the car.

He claimed that the stall on the transmission could be set/reset with a paper clip (his words)

I have done nothing other than mess with the downpipe. I know at one point in my youth, I rode in the back of the car while a close friend of my dad's (who was also a GN fanatic) had a laptop sitting in the car. My dad was driving @125mph, his friend monitoring the laptop asked my dad to punch the throttle and my dad yelled "we are already going 125, are you sure we need to go faster to do this?" His friend and he switch spots and they went back at it trying to tune it even more. I am not sure if a laptop is required still or not, but in any case, I have several if it is needed.

Dad can't answer any questions for me now. I really do not know the car other than my dad saying "Just wait until you dial that car in, you are really going to like it" Then he always warned me "Make sure you run 116 octane or get the Snow kit I bought". He also said never to swap the transmission, that there was work done to it and to only get it rebuilt. That if I got a rebuilt tranny I would be doing a disservice. It is a built TH200 that I know of that shifts very hard. Stall convertor? paper clip? was that just dementia?

I wouldn't know the first thing about "dialing it in" (my dad's term) I have Mustangs that have been supercharged, turbo charged, NOS, cammed with all the goodies, but I have never had to change a chip and turn up boost, I just programmed it too. Same thing with my Cummins Ram. This car is different, I can assume that increasing boost is related to the arm on the turbo, but like the old man said, I need to put in the 116 octane gas or use that injection setup right? He bought the injection setup in October of last year, so it is not really old. I know he wanted to use it like crazy before he died, but didn't get the chance and he lost his coherency before he could explain everything to me.

So what am I dealing with here? How do I "dial it in" like Dad was always saying? When I was a kid, the front wheels of this car came off the ground, I have seen it. I have seen the back end spin loose while doing rollers in "Drive". Every car I have ever raced has had a manual transmission, but dad swore by the one in the GN. I do not know much about the autos and the stall convertor.

Any advice would be appreciated. Sorry for the long post.
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Old 03-29-2014, 08:30 AM
pajeff87 pajeff87 is offline
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Default Re: Long Post - New Owner

Condolences on the loss of your father.

It's great that he wanted to keep the car in the family and that it is now in your care. We acquired our Turbo Buick last year and I had to essentially do the same thing -- determine what had been changed out or modded on the car so I could then work on it. We were fortunate in that it came with documentation and a bag full of receipts for everything that had ever been done to the car since it was purchased new -- right down to the oil changes.

The boost number that you cited is actually low. In stock trim these cars ran at just under 15 psi. Our car currently runs at 17 psi on premium fuel with only a handful of mods, including an aftermarket chip. Granted, if engine compression has been upped through machining or aftermarket parts, then a lower boost number may be necessary to avoid detonation.

The two things that hurt these engines are running lean and detonation. You may have to do some more investigation. Did your father keep receipts or other written records on maintenance? If not, you can usually post photos or part number on forums such as this and members can help you decipher exactly what you have.

As to the torque converter, the only thing that makes sense to me is if it is a "switch pitch" converter. This is something Buick utilized back in the '60s. Essentially, through an electric solenoid the angle of the vanes can be changed and this alters the stall speed. Maybe he was grounding the solenoid with a paper clip to change the stall?
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:18 AM
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Evans Ward Evans Ward is offline
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Default Re: Long Post - New Owner

Welcome!

I'll bet the paper clip was this:

Paper clip

A paper clip? Well, I know there is controversy on this subject, I can only speak from experience. Locking up the torque converter has always been worth a solid 2 tenths (YES, TWO TENTHS FROM A PAPER CLIP!) at the track. Some say breakage can occur, which comes from the fact that you are working the Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) on the shifts by locking it up at WOT. This can eventually burn out the clutches, but at the typical "Recipe Car" level, the stock converter will take this treatment for several hundred runs.

^ that info comes from this site under drag racing your Turbo Regal on the technical/ resource guide. Seems like it was done on one of the ALDL ports under the radio pod area.
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Old 03-31-2014, 01:09 PM
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kenmosher kenmosher is offline
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Default Re: Long Post - New Owner

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllPlayNoWork View Post
My father passed at age 67 due to an aggressive type of cancer.
Sorry for your loss ... sounds like a good guy!


Quote:
It has an intake tube, gutted exhaust and sometimes it has a downpipe. I would personally rather not run the downpipe, it does seem to allow 14pst where as without it that boost stops around 10-11.
The down pipe will not directly affect boost levels ... sounds like the waste gate is different between pipes (is it built into the pipe at the turbo or a separate unit?)

Basically, you need to adjust the waste gate to the desired boost level. My guess is the down pipe is freer flowing, so the boost will jump a couple PSI.

Quote:
my dad made me swear that I would not mess with the boost unless it had race gas in it or the alcohol injection setup was done. He told me that to play it safe to keep it at 14psi.
Wise advice indeed... learn about the car, the tuning (see ScanMaster, TurboLink, etc.)

Quote:
There is a box with what appears to be a Snow Performance model 20013GN Boost Cooler kit in it. Separate from that is some Braided hose with fittings on them that have been custom made.
That would be for alcohol/water injection ... kind of an extra intercooler in a box. Another great tuning tool when you get confident to up the boost.

Quote:
He claimed that the stall on the transmission could be set/reset with a paper clip (his words)
I'm betting he's locking the converter as described above. I've always used a simple switch wired in behind the ALDL port.

Quote:
I am not sure if a laptop is required still or not, but in any case, I have several if it is needed.
That's important to know ... my bet it was a monitor (like TurboLink or something) if he's still using stock chips and the stock ECM. You should confirm the car is still using the stock ECM (in the passenger's side kick panel)

Quote:
He also said never to swap the transmission, that there was work done to it and to only get it rebuilt.
Sage advice again ... probably afraid of the horror stories we all have with a shop swapping out the BRF valve body that is unique to the turbo Regals.

Quote:
I wouldn't know the first thing about "dialing it in" (my dad's term)
Read a lot here (on the http://www.gnttype.org site). There are some good tuning and tech articles in the tech sections. Basically, it involves the balancing act between chip program, boost levels, octane levels, and monitoring for knock.

It's something that you need to understand about these cars; they are all about combinations and not just individual parts or procedures. Done correctly, 1 + 1 CAN equal 3 because of the additive effects of a well match combo vs. a mishmash of parts.
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Last edited by kenmosher; 03-31-2014 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 03-31-2014, 03:19 PM
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Keller Keller is offline
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Exclamation Re: Long Post - New Owner

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenmosher View Post
It's something that you need to understand the that these cars are all about combinations and not just individual parts or procedures. Done correctly, 1 + 1 CAN equal 3 because of the additive effects of a well match combo vs. a mishmash of parts.
...and 1 + 1 can equal -5 as well. The RIGHT parts added at the RIGHT time to set up the RIGHT combination is what you want and need. You will not go faster by shopping in a catalog.

Its the combination, not the amount you spend.
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Old 04-13-2014, 01:48 PM
AllPlayNoWork AllPlayNoWork is offline
 
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Default Re: Long Post - New Owner

This is great info guys. Thank you so much.

I am trying to read everything I can. I do now own a Scanmaster but have not hooked it up yet (Is this the preferred device?) But I do have access to laptops, old and new that can be setup in any form.

I ran the tank to near empty, then filled the car with 101 octane. I changed the chip to the 93 octane chip and then I messed with the boost some. I am not sure I doing this properly.

I removed the clip and arm from the Waste gate (I think) and turned the end to shorten the arm 1 turn, then drove it around and that seemed to get me to 12lbs by the time it settled down.

Then I turned it one more time. This got me around 14lbs, with no downpipe and the car running excellent, really, really strong and very aggressive. I tried turning it to get more than 16 and it seems that I can not get more than 15lbs doing what I am doing. I must be doing something wrong, because I know for a fact that he ran the car over 20lbs frequently and more like 25lbs.

If there is a special wastegate or solenoid I need to buy, I will. I just do not know if I am doing this right. There is a coupler nut that connects threaded ends of the arm with lock nuts on each side of it. I can turn the end connector "tighty righty" and if needed, I can turn the rod from the solenoid without drawing the end connector closer. I do not know if turning that solenoid means anything or not at all. Heh.. I am going to get a picture so you guys can tell me what I have.

My god the car is pretty flipping fast at 14lbs. Hey, I did turn the fuel pressure up to 45#. Is that acceptable? Is that a potential for damage?

Let me take a snapshot and link up some info so you guys can see. Thanks for everything!
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Old 04-15-2014, 07:30 PM
AllPlayNoWork AllPlayNoWork is offline
 
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Default Re: Long Post - New Owner

Here is a view or two of what I have.

I know that my dad and his friends have removed and replaced turbochargers, I do not know if they were modified or anything like that at all.

There are two hoses that go into a "Y" fitting, but I do not know if that is proper as I have read something regarding that earlier.







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Old 04-23-2014, 10:54 AM
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kenmosher kenmosher is offline
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Default Re: Long Post - New Owner

Looks like a TA series turbo ... without seeing the wheels it could be anything from TA49 to 62.

The fender well dump tube thing on the hot side looks like some sort of homemade setup. In the very early days, there was a lot of experimentation with that sort of setup, but as downpipes got better and better, most people didn't do that any more. In addition, it turns out the pass. side inner fender liner was unique to the TRs and not available from GM or aftermarket. The regular Regal one has molded in pedestals for relays and stuff that the TRs didn't, so folks got a bit leary of cutting up the fender liner.

As to the boost ... depending on the pitch of the threads on the adjustable arm, it could be a couple things:
  • If the pitch is fairly coarse (standard thread), then it's usually about one full turn is a approx. one pound of boost.
  • If it's a fine pitch, then it might be 2-3 turns per pound of boost.
  • If the wastegate "flapper" isn't sealing completely, then that could explain why the boost doesn't seem to be rising in relation to your adjustments.
  • If the wastegate actuator is leaking, diaphragm is cracked, arm is binding, then that can also affect boost behavior.
  • If there are cracks, leaks, loose connections in the Y fitting tubing, that can also affect boost behavior.

Basically, ~12 PSI is the base boost setting with the arm fitting fairly loosely on the flapper crank in most setups. You need some tension on the arm before boost will be more stable and adjustable.

The chip relies on at least a little tension to control the waste gate ... the chip has no direct feedback and basically "guesses" on boost levels (which is why the adjustable arm trick works...)
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2006 Trailblazer SS Red Jewel Tint 395 HP AWD (sold)
2014 Silverado LTZ Crew 4WD
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  #9  
Old 07-29-2014, 12:17 PM
AllPlayNoWork AllPlayNoWork is offline
 
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Default Re: Long Post - New Owner

OK, it's time to fess up, embarrassing as it is.

I had been messing around with this issue of boost here and there, even bought a new actuator. I had checked the hose setup off the turbo, it was legit, then I started poking around a little later. Massive hole in a vacuum line that went from the canister, which was tapped into and led to what appears to be a regulator of some sort (it has juice going to it) also the aftermarket boost gauge and finally to a line that reaches down in front of the water pump. I just decided to start replacing stuff like the PCV (NICE LOCATION GM YOU SADISTIC BASTAGES) and the vacuum lines.

It has all the boost and when it hit 21 I let off the pedal and backed off the boost to 18 on the actuator arm. I have the scanmaster, but haven't hooked it up yet and frankly do not know what I am even looking for yet, unsure of how much boost I can run with 101 octane fuel, but it didn't stumble at 20#'s, I just laid off of it. 18 seems reasonable for now with the thing running 14 under normal conditions. It just kept dropping though, the car would spit and sputter at 12, then 10, then 9 and eventually 5 before I really got serious about things.

Now, the vacuum line was ANCIENT and it was even collapsed from the canister (there was a check valve in between the gauge tees and canister) plus I couldn't see it hiding under the cruise control, but this is a resolved issue and HELLO.

Time for the 119 octane and 25#'s. holy crap that car pulls hard. now that I have it working mechanically, I am going to start wet sanding out oxidation and restoring this baby. I just didn't want to work on mechanical while AFTER I took care of appearance. The hood is clouded and so is the trunk lid, so I am going to sand it all out, entirely. Get the fillers replaced and then have it shot again without actually stripping the original paint. I already did half of the hood and it came out fantastic.
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Old 07-31-2014, 07:32 AM
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Evans Ward Evans Ward is offline
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Default Re: Long Post - New Owner

Get that scanmaster hard wired in, download the manual for it and study/ learn each parameter so you can be knowledgeable about tuning. That would be really good insurance for you at this stage with the boost levels you are mentioning running. May help you make a very costly mistake.

Glad you found that vacuum leak. Check all of your other vacuum hoses while you are at it. You'll probably find more. Best bet would be to replace them all if the car has sat for any time.
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