GN and T-Type Performance Enthusiasts (GNTTYPE) Forums GN and T-Type Performance Enthusiasts (GNTTYPE) Forums
This is a general site search and does not include list archives.

Go Back   GN and T-Type Performance Enthusiasts (GNTTYPE) Forums > Technical Topics > Alternate Fuels

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-03-2013, 12:49 PM
ed39 ed39 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 701
ed39 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to ed39
Question E85?????

So I saw a gas station the other day that was selling e85 for 3.30 a gallon, I've heard about it but never done much research, did some reading and the stuff seems a lot better higher octane rating and burns cooler, seems to be more corrosive and takes more e85 to achieve the power gasoline does? Anyone done any experiments with this? Maybe using it in place of denatured alky for water injection? Maybe mixing some in the tank?

Looking to learn more about it what do you guys think?
__________________
blue top injectors, lt1 maf, translator, ATR single shot exhaust, 3inch dp, gnx wheels, turbo tweak chip , atr rear sway bar, super servo, shift kit, stock converter, 210/205 cam at .50 100lb springs, pt 51 turbo street tune for now
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:09 PM
Keller's Avatar
Keller Keller is offline
GNTTYPE Founder
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Missouri
Posts: 9,424
Keller is on a distinguished road
Lightbulb Re: E85?????

Not sure I would recommend it for additional injection. However, it can be an ideal fuel, with some caveats.

As you mentioned, it can be somewhat corrosive. So all rubber lines and such must be updated to handle it. Only fairly new cars have this from the factory, which is why the auto industry is pushing back a bit against E15 fuels. It would be best to have all stainless metal fuel lines and pump hanger, or appropriate plastic ones.

That all being said, I have seen it work. In a Accel DFI class one attendee had a turbo Honda using a T70 turbo. The increase in power from fuel to E85 was notable, both because octane was higher and boost could be increased over pump 93, and because of the cooling. After a dyno pull, you could touch the turbo and exhaust manifold with your hand almost right after the run. However, it was actually hard to get the motor to heat enough to be in "closed loop" at the start of a pull.

"Electra Jim" Sickler has started to run E85 in his Procharged 455 '77 Electra. There are still some fuel delivery issues, as I set up his DFI to run 100+% duty cycle on the injectors and it still could not get enough fuel. This is with 160# injectors, which should be more than enough. But it had this issue before with pump and race gas as well. The car has run 11.60 with race fuel, and it was lean then as well.

Regardless, injector size needs to be increased considerably with E85 delivery to get enough fuel. It needs to be roughly 47% larger. That means 28 x 1.47 = 41.16# roughly on a bone stock TR. And considerably larger if you have it set up with a larger turbo, etc.

Another issue is that the E85 can be more like E70 during the winter months, which vary by where you are in the country. This is due to the need to prevent water content from getting into the fuel. So that needs to be considered when tuning for E85.
__________________
Scott Keller - GNTTYPE Founder & Moderator
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:50 PM
ed39 ed39 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 701
ed39 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to ed39
Default Re: E85?????

In other words e85 isn't quiet there yet? It's better but still needs to be perfected as today's engines are devolved off of gasoline and not so much e85.
Also your saying it wouldn't be better to run in the place of denatured alky? That's what I was thinking since its about 12 dollars cheaper, not that money is an object when I wanna stomp out ricers on the street

Thanks for the write up tho helped me out a ton!
__________________
blue top injectors, lt1 maf, translator, ATR single shot exhaust, 3inch dp, gnx wheels, turbo tweak chip , atr rear sway bar, super servo, shift kit, stock converter, 210/205 cam at .50 100lb springs, pt 51 turbo street tune for now

Last edited by ed39; 02-03-2013 at 01:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-04-2013, 02:55 PM
kenmosher's Avatar
kenmosher kenmosher is offline
Whoosh
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: CO
Posts: 3,984
kenmosher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: E85?????

E85 is a great fuel for all the "Flex Fuel Vehicles" out there. Great for boosted applications due to it's higher octane.

Downsides are on OLDER vehicles with lots of rubber in the fuel system (O rings, seals, injectors, etc.). As long as these parts are replaced with Viton (or equivalent materials) and rated for more than 15% alcohol, you're golden.

Basically almost anything made after 2000 has at least E15 tolerance as part of the design. Anything dubbed "Flex Fuel" is 100% capable.

Avoiding the whole "food for fuel" aspects of it ... technically:

Upsides:
- Average octane of around 110 octane
- Burns cleaner from a hydrocarbon standpoint
- Doesn't form deposits on valves as readily (or other parts of the fuel system)

Downsides:
- Hydoscopic - mixes with water, so high humidity in a nonsealed fuel system can "dilute" it. This is also sort of an advantage because it flushes water through the system instead of settling to the bottom of the tank as in 100% gasoline.
- Less energy content per gallon, which requires more fuel for the same power. E85 is about 9.76:1 so it takes about 30% more fuel. You need to make sure the pump, injectors and lines are sized appropriately for the additional flow
- Like water, it can become make dirt and grease soluble and cause corrosion or build up in parts of the fuel system
- Corrosion can occur in retrofitted systems if extensive Stainless Steel, Viton, and other resistant materials aren't used
__________________
Ken Mosher
1987 GN original owner 650+ HP Black
2015 BMW 328xi XDrive wagon
2012 Volkswagen Tiguan (the Tig!) Night Blue Met (sold)
2006 Trailblazer SS Red Jewel Tint 395 HP AWD (sold)
2014 Silverado LTZ Crew 4WD
2012 Honda VFR 1200F Tahitian Blue (sold)
2015 BMW S1000R Racing Red
2013 Honda CBR500R Red (wife's bike)
2014 Triumph Bonneville T100
2003 Harley Davidson V Rod Anniversary Edition
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-17-2013, 10:14 AM
ed39 ed39 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 701
ed39 is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to ed39
Default Re: E85?????

Appreciate the replays guys very good info.

I assume you couldn't use this for the alky injection? Cause of its corrosive property's?
__________________
blue top injectors, lt1 maf, translator, ATR single shot exhaust, 3inch dp, gnx wheels, turbo tweak chip , atr rear sway bar, super servo, shift kit, stock converter, 210/205 cam at .50 100lb springs, pt 51 turbo street tune for now
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-17-2013, 10:28 AM
kenmosher's Avatar
kenmosher kenmosher is offline
Whoosh
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: CO
Posts: 3,984
kenmosher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: E85?????

Sure you could ... However you'd need to have a fuel cell or something. Much more flammable.
__________________
Ken Mosher
1987 GN original owner 650+ HP Black
2015 BMW 328xi XDrive wagon
2012 Volkswagen Tiguan (the Tig!) Night Blue Met (sold)
2006 Trailblazer SS Red Jewel Tint 395 HP AWD (sold)
2014 Silverado LTZ Crew 4WD
2012 Honda VFR 1200F Tahitian Blue (sold)
2015 BMW S1000R Racing Red
2013 Honda CBR500R Red (wife's bike)
2014 Triumph Bonneville T100
2003 Harley Davidson V Rod Anniversary Edition
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-27-2013, 03:49 AM
Shawn N's Avatar
Shawn N Shawn N is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 372
Shawn N is on a distinguished road
Default Re: E85?????

Thats why those WRX's and Evo's can run 30lbs of boost...E85!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-06-2013, 03:52 AM
Shawn N's Avatar
Shawn N Shawn N is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 372
Shawn N is on a distinguished road
Default Re: E85?????

So I have heard stories and read a few things on E-85 mixed with pump gas. How much E-85 can be blended with pump premium 93 and be used in a original steel/rubber fuel system safely. I have read stories about 50/50 mixes but I am reluctant to try it without further researching it first.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-10-2013, 02:47 AM
xounlistedxox's Avatar
xounlistedxox xounlistedxox is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: CA
Posts: 35
xounlistedxox is on a distinguished road
Default Re: E85?????

I run E85 in my 05 SRT-4. 2.4l turbo with mild bolt ons. Had to get a bigger fuel pump, run 70+lb injectors, rewire the fuel pump to ensure it gets 12v@wot, and tune with it. End result was nearly 40whp, considerably lower emmissions and nearly no engine knock even at high boost with lots of timing. I can run 25-27* advanced at 20psi. The major downfall in my opinon is the drastically decreased fuel mileage. I went from 22-24mpg around town 28-30 freeway to 12-14mpg around town 21-23mpg freeway. So now I have to make stops more often to the gas station and also plan routes carefully to make sure there is e85 along the way to fuel up

I am already very much considering e85 for my t type. Since I have an 85 hot air setup I plan on doing other mods first such as an intercooler, electric fan, and down pipe first, but e85 is definitely a game changer and worth the extra effort it takes to run it. 110 octane for ~$3/gallon yes please!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-10-2013, 07:30 AM
pajeff87 pajeff87 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 213
pajeff87 is on a distinguished road
Default Re: E85?????

What is stoich for E85?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:09 AM.


This page maintained by: gnttype-webmaster@gnttype.org

The content, images, text and multimedia displayed and contributed by the members of the Grand National and T-Type Performance Enthusiasts Organization are Copyright ©1996-2005. No part, section, image, article or whole of this site may be reposted or redisplayed without permission of the author/contributor and/or the Grand National and T-Type Performance Enthusiasts Organization.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.